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    • CommentAuthorFree Memberyannis
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2008
     
    yannis

    Hi all

    I started trying to run some time ago and a friend suggested a book to set me on the right track. The title is "Body Mind and Sport" by John Douillard. Has anybody read it? The guy recommends a training regime that seems to be based on a VERY gradual increase of one's aerobic capacity. He strongly recommends that the runner shouldn't breath through the mouth at all. Instead, he says, the runner should backpedal, go back to significantly lower training intensities (50-60% of HRmax) in order to become able to sustain prolonged exercise at that intensity and then work his way up from there very gradually. He maintains that one can climb up to his previous performance level but this time with breathing rates as slow as 14-20 breaths per minute and heart rates around 130-140!!!

    I've been doing capoeira (a brazilian martial art) for a few years now and I want to start running a bit to increase my aerobic capacity but this guy's suggestions seem kind of radical to me.

    has anyone tried this stuff?

    • CommentAuthorFree Memberspudsmac12
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2008
     
    spudsmac12
    Sounds kinda hooky to me, but lets check the math- where are top endurance athletes currently at: turnover is around 85-95/min and 1 breath every 1.5 (generally accepted as the more popular breathing pattern, giving a breath on alternating feet) so that would be 56-64 breaths/min, not even close to 14-20. Assume the other way around 1.5 breaths at 20 breaths would be a turnover of 30steps/min, thats great if your walking. To match the turnover of an average casual runner at a rate of 60/min you would have to take a breath every 3 steps? So your right foot would have to hit the ground 3 times for you to take a breath! That is very unconventional. Personally I also do not see any logic in reducing your breathing rate as an advantage for running. Maybe, and I'm stretching here, by reducing the breathing rate you would mimic a higher altitude to improve VO2? But in my mind that seems like a really big stretch. As for the heart rate, for an endurance run like a marathoner would be around 75% of max so 173-187max which is about (via easy estimate 220-age) would make the person about 33-47. Which seems reasonable, as for an elite marathoner would be, like Ryan Hall's, but I would imagine that it is not too far off. So... long story short the math does not add up for the breathing part of it, also neither does the fact that I have never observed a top athlete running with there mouth closed. Heck the Olympics are coming up, you can see for yourself (that is if their not wearing a mask, ZING take that China, sorry couldn't help myself. They had on the news 5 of the last 7 days the air in Beijing was deemed unhealthy by the WHO, I can't imagine running in that). The heart rate is plausible, but I don't think that you need a gimmick to drop it down to that rate, your regular running will suffice. I'm also not one to shoot down an interesting new training idea so give it a shot if you want, heck i might, but it really doesn't make much sense to me.
    • CommentAuthorFree Memberyannis
    • CommentTimeAug 2nd 2008
     
    yannis

    Hi Spudsmac12

    thank you for the comment. Yes, what you say sounds reasonable to me too. I think that John Douillard somehow considers the mouth breathing idea a response to overexertion/stress. He seems to believe that we mouth-breathers tap into our emergency/stress-response when we run and breath through our mouths. He states that we can retrain ourselves to breathe through our noses and by doing so change a long chain of unwanted consequences like the mass production of free-radicals, next day stiffness, injuries etc. He even connects nasal breathing during exercise with the experience of the Zone. Anyway, I don't know, as I was reading "Body Mind and Sport", it appeared to me that he was making an interesting albeit hard to swallow case. That's why I decided to post the question here to see if anyone has had any experience with this guy's method.

    Thanks again

    • CommentAuthorFree Memberlms1122
    • CommentTimeAug 2nd 2008
     
    lms1122

    I always try to breathe out of my nose only as long as possible. It does seem to help me last longer; some long runs (8+ miles) I have been able to breate out of my nose only pretty much the entire time. However, this only works for me when I am going at a slow pace (9:30 to 10 min miles). If I up the pace to 9:00 or faster, I always have to resort to breathing out of my mouth. I am not a speed runner, so that may be why it only works for me for long distances. I have noticed when I breathe out of my nose only, my hear rate seems to be much slower at the end of a run compared to when I breathe out of my mouth. If I were you and wanted to try this method, I would probably stick to a slower pace (9:30 min miles compared to 8:00 or 8:30 min miles) and sustain it for a longer time.

    Good luck!

    • CommentAuthorFree Memberyannis
    • CommentTimeAug 4th 2008
     
    yannis

    Thanks Lynn. I think, if I understand what the author says, that that's exactly what he is suggesting: nasal breathing leads to lower average hear rate (as well as a number of other spectacular things). I think I'll give it a go. I've dropped the question to a couple of running forums that I've come across but noone seems to have read this guy's book or to have tried his method. I guess the only way I can find out is give it a go.

    thanks again

    Yannis

    • CommentAuthorFree MemberMichigan
    • CommentTimeAug 11th 2008
     
    Michigan
    I much prefer mouth breathing, I think I would feel like I was suffocating if I breathed through my nose!  I think you should breathe the way that you instinctually/naturally tend to when you're running. For me, that's thru my mouth!   
  1.  
    samjbeckett
    I always thought you were supposed to breathe in through your nose and out through your mouth, especially to get rid of a stitch, generally when I'm running i breathe like this but alternate it around a bit. Can't imagine just breathing through my nose. Especially as it can get a bit runny when i get warmed up. Anyone who has seen Paula Radcliffe run knows that she gets a runny nose because at the end her face is covered with snot. Still I'd put up with that to be able to run like her.
  2.  
    Green Lantern
    I chose to discipline myself from the very beginning to use the "in through the nose, out through the mouth" method of breathing.  I have worked my way to a 23 minute 5k.  My fastest breath rate is one breath every two steps when either on a steep incline or sprinting.  (Speaking of inclines, I have to say that working those hills has been the best way for me to quickly gain endurance).  Controlling my breathing has another benefit in that it helps keep my mind occupied and not so focused on parts of my body that might be complaining about the exertion.
  3.  
    rpetreccajr
    I personally generally breathe through my mouth when running at any speed. Partly that is due to nasal congestion, partly habit. But, if you look at the simple physics of it, it seems to me that my mouth is larger than my nostrils and closer in diameter or larger than my wind pipe. Therefore I can move more air more rapidly through my mouth than through my nose. I don't have any scientific studies to back me up, just the empirical evidence of my own experience.
    • CommentAuthorFree Memberbroadsword
    • CommentTimeOct 17th 2008
     
    broadsword

    I am a recent convert to nasal breathing (I use nasal "breathe right" strips doubled up when I want to go really hard - this is the only thing I have found necessary when nasal brathing) and have been quite shocked at how fast I can run breathing through the nose. I recently completed 4 three minute intervals at 98% VO max and never broke out of nasal breathing (I have run a 1:56 half-mile as a junior,  so I am no slouch). In the occasional steep, long climb on a tough XC course, I need to oro-nasal breathe, but I breathe in through the mouth-nose combo, and EXHALE nasally! this is weird, but it really helps the developmet of your max VO2 by increasing the back-pressure in the lungs, enhancing O2 absorption, and thus improving O2 consumption ability.

     The narrower passages of the nose ensure that air enters the lungs FASTER, not slower. This is the Bernoulli principle in action. One of the first things I notice when I open the mouth, is how "flat" the breath feels. It really isn't deep in any sense. Also, by the time and i have to switch to full mouth breathing, I have become so uncomfortable that mouth breathing ain't gonna save me anyways. So I now see mouth-breathing in a hard interval session or a race as an indicator that I have somehow screwed things up, pace-wise.

     That said, John Douillard is not doctrinaire - he even reccommends mouth breathing if you are a currently active athlete on a programme, BUT, nasal breathing is considered always a "work in progress". I am constantly amazed at the little incremental improvements - and they add up fast. Sadly, I sometimes have bad days where I regress - that's OK, I just go with it, knowing that after a day or two, my nasal breathing is fine again.

     Here's the thing - the first few months of using the technique are flat-footed hell, as your body (and mind mostly!) readjust to nasal breathing, a different airflow, and more. But I am convinced the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. Certainly you will experience an initial (and possibly big!) drop in pace, but you really will recover most of that speed in the first few months. After about a year, I suspect most people will be right back up to speed, but you'll have a whole new experience breathing!

    Where does that leave you? You may break into mouth breathing for the last part of a tough race (John Douillard's own words) but you're steadily increasing the time you spend nasal breathing, and the speed at which you can do it. So you're getting the benefits constantly. I used to be a constant mouth-breather (allergies and an old broken nose). Not anymore. I am now a habitual nose-breather at rest.

    As a last note I find it funny how most people try nose breathing for a day (if at all) and conclude it doesn't work!

    • CommentAuthorFree Memberbroadsword
    • CommentTimeOct 17th 2008 edited
     
    broadsword
    Last note I promise - my fastest breathing rate at VO2 max is about 28-32 per minute nasally, and 55+ through the mouth, but Dr Douillard is correct, the heart rate is till stubbornly high. He comments in the book that as this is driven primarily by the parasympathetic nervous system, this is the last bastion of "panic" running.
    • CommentAuthorPremium Member!paul.d
    • CommentTimeOct 17th 2008
     
    paul.d

    from a satisfied customer (no connection otherwise) this really works!

    http://www.cyclo-club.com/public/636.cfm